I agree .Prisons are closed to visitors .No new jury trials will start .we must stay home and observe strict hygiene and keep social distance .Health care workers die probably because of repetitive exposure to the virus creating a deadly viral load But we are still supposed to go to court and police stations .!
I am sorry for police officers who are in a terrible position but sense needs to prevail .Release or remote working in the handful of truly serious cases .
Support the LCCSA/CLSA protocol .
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: "Mark McKeever (via members list)" <members@mail.lccsa.org.uk>Date: 28/03/2020 08:58 (GMT+00:00)To: Debbie Hunt <dhunt@wiseman.co.uk>Cc: Hamza Ade <hadesanu@yahoo.co.uk>, Members <members@mail.lccsa.org.uk>Subject: Re: Remote Police Station Attendance
I think we do need to be open to finding solutions in these extraordinary times but I am not an enthusiast for virtual participation in interviews by phone or video link. Face to face consultation and presence at interview are undoubtedly in our client’s best interest.My concern is that we risk these forms of virtual participation becoming the norm for ever more.I believe that our focus should be on the earliest possible release of our clients from police stations without interview.In the vast majority of cases they are neither necessary nor in the best interests of our clients.In the current circumstances it is undoubtedly in the best interest of our clients, the officers and ourselves that we do not breach all government and medical advice on social distancing by attending police stations for interview.To do otherwise has implications not just for the participants but all they have subsequent contact with; which in turn has implications for all those, particularly the NHS staff, on whom we are so dependant and who do not have the option of ensuring social distancing.I stand by the view that I originally expressed: we should take a unified position of making representations for the release of our clients without interview and advising all of our clients to refuse to leave their cell to participate in them.Stay safe!
Mark McKeeverConsultant SolicitorBirds Solicitors
On Sat, 28 Mar 2020 at 06:30, Debbie Hunt <dhunt@wiseman.co.uk> wrote:
You’re right Hamza, our job is absolutely essential and clients do deserve full representation but these are extraordinary times requiring extraordinary solutions. In any event , no one is suggesting that clients are not fully represented- the point is that the technology exists for us to be able to fully represent them - but at a safe distance.
It’s just not being used to protect us. Yet.
If the crown courts are doing bail apps and PTPH’s on the phone, why can’t we have a video link into a police interview? It’s not rocket science. After all, businesses hold conference calls with people on the other side of the world but apparently we can’t do that with our local police station.
Sadly police, nurses and doctors cannot work remotely. We can. That’s the difference.
Debbie HuntSolicitorCriminal Law DepartmentWiseman Lee
From: Hamza Ade (via members list) <members@mail.lccsa.org.uk>
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2020 10:09 pm
To: markfmckeever@googlemail.com
Cc: Members
Subject: Re: Remote Police Station Attendance
I understand your concerns. We're all share them. It's your right to choose if you want to attend or not.But you're not being helpful and a bit disrespectful.
It's a risk keyworkers, police, nurses, doctors are taking every day, more so than I am with one or two clients.
Like I said, probably more than once now but you ignore that, there's an obvious risk to your client by not attending as well.Feel free to not attend. It's a call we all have to make.
I think all our clients still deserve full representation even in these difficult times.
Peace
On Friday, 27 March 2020 21:46:30 GMT, markfmckeever@googlemail.com <markfmckeever@googlemail.com> wrote:
You are obviously feeling very confident that you and nobody you care about are going to end up at the 4000 bed field hospital at the Excel centre or the 1400 corpse mortuary at Birmingham airport.Perhaps take a look at this and give a little more thought to the subject and show a bit more respect for your professional colleagues:
MarkSent from my iPhone
On 27 Mar 2020, at 21:11, Hamza Ade <hadesanu@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
My names's there. If you know a Hamza who's a solicitor it'll be me most likely. Make an effort, google or something. That's not the important bit it sounds petty.
I'm being serious. I'm not trying to make light of the crisis and current circumstances but while we're all on here justifying our role as essential workers, doctors, nurses and police are sitting there doing the job and facing the public.
Either we're essential or we aren't. Either our job is something we can properly do on the end of a phone or it isn't. Either make your stand and refuse to attend or do a proper job. But we're often heard to be talking about our job protecting the vulnerable, so do it properly or not at all. I would estimate I intervene in a large proportion of my interviews, it might be because I'm a misery or because I don't want officers taking liberties with my client.I can't do that if I'm not there.
I can of course tell my client 'go no comment' over the phone. But then when the officer reminds him/her for the fifth or sixth time he/she may not get another 'opportunity' and 'it is just advice' and officer simply wants to find out what happened and all the other tricks who's there to support my client? Me on my sofa doing it by remote control?
As a colleague said (no I'm not naming her for your benefit), "has everyone forgotten why we're supposed to be there in the first place?"
Hamza Adesanu(If that's of any consequence)
On Friday, 27 March 2020 20:42:14 GMT, <markfmckeever@googlemail.com> wrote:
If you are going to contribute to the serious debate in this manner perhaps you could have the Integrity to identify yourself.Mark McKeeverConsultant SolicitorBirds Solicitors
MarkSent from my iPhone
On 27 Mar 2020, at 19:27, Hamza Ade (via members list) <members@mail.lccsa.org.uk> wrote:
The interview bit is important. You might identify a need to change your advice based on the questions that are asked. Clients often complain about solicitors who just 'sat there' in interview and we've all seen interviews where this has happened in reality. This is also that in reality
I'm uneasy about just 'mailing it in' and there's a risk clients will get the wrong impression of a solicitor who couldn't be arsed to turn up.
I know measures need to be taken but congratulating ourselves for providing a half arsed service isn't it.
Take your wipes, wear a mask, carry gloves, make your checks, keep your distance.But short changing clients is wrong.Next thing we'll be advising clients in court over the phone or even doing whole trials that way. Why not, it's no less difficult to arrange? Have your client on facetime, hook up his or her phone to the court speakers. Do it all in your jim jams.Profitable but wrong
On Friday, 27 March 2020 16:19:16 GMT, Debbie Hunt <dhunt@wiseman.co.uk> wrote:
I had an own client at Wood Green Police station this morning arrested for domestic common assault and breach restraining order.
I explained to the client on the phone that neither myself or a colleague were prepared to attend him face to face in the present circumstances for obvious reasons but that I was more than happy to advise and assist him over the phone/video. I advised that if he wanted a solicitor in person there was nothing to stop him seeking advice elsewhere. He said he was happy to deal with it over phone/video.
I then explained the position to the OIC who asked me what I was proposing. I requested the custody record to be emailed to me and disclosure over the phone/email. I requested that the interview be done through a video link of some sort. The custody record was emailed to me within about 5 minutes and the OIC gave me verbal disclosure. The OIC said there was “no facility” to conduct an interview on phone or video link. I challenged this but she said that’s what she had been told by the custody officer whose name I made a note of I then spoke with the client over the phone for 20 minutes on a clear telephone line during which I gave legal advice and took his instructions in just the same way as if I had been in the same room. As a result of his instructions I advised we should proceed by way of a prepared statement and no comment interview. Client agreed. I then drafted a PS and spoke to the client again who approved it. I then rang the OIC and emailed it to her with a request that it be read out in the interview and that I was on the end of a phone if client wanted further legal advice. I then had a post interview consultation with the client who was happy with the way things had gone so far. It all worked well with the cooperation of the OIC. The only problem was that I was not in the actual interview – this could be solved easily with the goodwill of custody.
I am now just waiting for a charge decision.
Having spent nearly 2 ½ hours dealing with the phone consultations, statements, emails etc with no detriment to my client it would seem very “unjust” if we are denied a full fee for this work if we can only claim for telephone advice. So much for a “Criminal Justice System “ ……
Debbie Hunt
Solicitor
Criminal Law Department
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